“There is a spirit of hyper masculinity, not just male friendship, that can take over. It is a teleology that puts men in a spiritual status over women.”
I’ve told your husbands that guys like this never had proper male role models and are overcompensating to the detriment of the community.
I also told him I overheard some catechumens bring up Jay Dyer in a reverent matter 🤦♂️
I’m starting to see the “orthobros” you mentioned coming into my parish 🙄
More and more I'm wondering how much these men might benefit from taking break from obscure theology or quotes from various elders and Youtube/podcast debates, and instead focusing for a while on the lives of the saints. Sure, the essence-energies distinction is important, but there's also living a Christian life, and we have ample material on what that actually looks like. With marriage and womanhood, I keep thinking especially of Sts. Justinian and Theodora, the latter having wielded a great deal of power with her husband; or the life of Sts. Peter and Fevronia of Murom, which shows a husband loving his wife as Christ loved his church; or St. Macrina, whom St. Gregory of Nyssa portrays as his teacher in "On the Soul and Resurrection." And whenever I encounter the term "Orthodox masculinity," I don't think of someone acting like Myron Gaines or Andrew Tate, I think of St. Basil the Fool.
Some years back I ran across a story of married saints during the Roman Empire. They’d been wealthy and after their child died, they took some decades to sell off their estates to the workers and local communities. It’s a story that just hits home for the pacing, the partnership, and the eventual outcomes. They rushed nothing and weren’t hasty. It struck me that they answered the call and negotiated the life of asceticism as they could take it, always working toward their salvation. Their story struck me as a model of sustaining sacrifice and enduring work.
David and I have made hard but conscious choices to be either neutral or downwardly mobile — our search to buy a mattress the year before going to seminary must have startled salespersons. “We’re downwardly mobile ‘cause he’s going to seminary…” This has always been a partnership. But David came into the marriage without the hypermasculinity enculturation I experienced in my charismatic, evangelical circles. And I came as a rather conservative contrarian to my experience. The alchemy isn’t omni-present. The commitment to work at it is.
“Many left, some remained. Because it turns out, women in the Orthodox Church aren’t just naturally “subservient” and willing to settle for a man who wants to remain domineering in the more Protestant understanding of marriage, with all the head of the household stuff somehow being inflated while women are chided to submit, submit, submit.”
Forgive me Presbytera, but the Bible and the Saints are the ones that seem to inflate the “head of the household stuff” and “chide” women to “submit”.
I’m confused as to why you think this is Protestant? If anything this idea is lost is much of Protestantism.
I’m concerned that we could easily talk past each other based upon what I just read in the post that you provided.
That will only worsen the situation.
That said, Icommend that man for working on his spirituality and his body-seeing the work on his body as a discipline that connects with his spiritual discipline- I am concerned about the man missing the mark on what women want.
In marriage, women want partners.
Building a good partnership is a long, hard road of self sacrifice and learning. That is true for anyone seeking that quality partnership.
Summer Kinnard gave one lovely example of a husband working on the sacrament of marriage.
“ Men who make their wives’ hearts glow and faces glow and bodies glow do so through showing up fully, to do whatever is needed to build up and feed the family and each other. They are not prescribers or judges but tenders and lovers, whether the poetry of their love pours out in words or the use of their hands to help the household. No man who wants to be like Christ would build a pedestal for himself, much less stand on it. Pedestals are for idols, not co-martyrs.”
My concern about the Writer you shared is that he still seems to think that he will need to be the leader and to somehow work on the woman he wants to marry.
As I wrote, many men seem to think they are teleologically superior to women.
I have to say in our congregation seekers may find some very good examples of marriages where it is clear that both partners are wearing the crowns of martyrdom for each other.
The crisis is not men coming into the church. I’m ready but rather remaining in the church without seeing women as made in the image of and an icon Christ as they see themselves.
“but rather remaining in the church without seeing” and such were some of you …
Such was I.
Such AM I.
The depth of sin in the fallenness of this world nowadays is such that there is considerable corruption in all of our members to be overcome. True repentance does not come quickly if you cannot love the person who sins differently than you if you cannot see Christ in an ortho, bro I guarantee you you will not see Christ in the chalice.
Honest question: Where in my writings did I not "see Christ" in the people referenced by the term that I said in the post was poorly defined? I outlined behaviors that wound others. It didn't address the same behaviors in the post you left for me (or other readers) to consider. Those were other behaviors.
I would like to point out that there's healing to be done in certain aspects of those behaviors.
If the Church is a hospital, then hopefully we can talk about behaviors that wound. Did you read Rod Dreher's post on the very situation addressed in the post you shared with readers here?
"if you cannot love the person who sins differently than you [etc] ...." is a high-handed rhetorical device that short-circuits sincere discussion. A kind of reverse mini-antinomianism.
I’m not accusing you of anything. We are being given a blessing by being entrusted with many souls who have come through enormous difficulties to find their way to the church. Now that they are in the church we have a responsibility to tend to their wounds. I can’t tell you how to do that. I don’t know you. But it is a responsibility we Orthodox share. Let nothing disturb your peace.
The preceding paragraph makes it clear that she’s talking about priests actually.
Even assuming Frederica is talking more generally about Orthodox influencers and Fr Doru can apply whatever definition he prefers to “orthobros” I think he would still have a hard time coming up with 15 names. I certainly can’t, but then I’m not that plugged in.
Point taken. That said, others, too, are talking about men who exhibit certain behaviors, as is Fr. Doru.
My post here is not to correct Frederica or "take her on." She's a moderating voice, and I appreciate that. We need all perspectives, but moderating ones especially.
This is all part of a larger conversation. And one that many have weighed in on. We are seeing a resurgence of ideas about male/female, husbands/wives, and clergy/laity that seem to miss the mark.
Notably, and sadly, I can quickly think of at least five priests I know of and several lower ranks of clergy who teach a worldview about male and female natures, men and women, and about hierarchy that leads to problematic behavior. There are homilies and talks about men disciplining their wives. There are talks that essentialize women as "in need of" or "desiring" leadership.
When we reduce humans to roles and functions or make people into projects, we are not seeing them in the fullness of how God created them.
These hint at a God-given difference that makes some people leaders. Others are just followers. Even an ordained priest is not teleologically superior or different from the rest of the flock. He's just been entrusted with specific work. We are all part of the priesthood.
The number of people who teach, maybe just within their homes or to their friends, is hard to quantify. Clergy alone do not create a healthy parish or congregation.
Women (and many hierarchs and priests) are alarmed by this *new* or less familiar teaching in the Orthodox Church. And the extraordinarily strong reactions against women in the diaconate, which many interpret as a strong reaction against women in any ordained leadership roles within the Church. Again, why? Are women by nature "less" than men somehow? That's not what the reasoning is for the male priesthood.
If people are reporting what alarms them, it seems reasonable to discuss it at length. Let's ask, what is the accurate scope and nature of the problem? What's at stake if we don't address it?
I'm hoping that my response here accurately reflects what you were trying to communicate to readers and to me.
I expanded a bit on some of the conversation. It has so many facets. I'm just noting that. It changes the line of your comments.
“There is a spirit of hyper masculinity, not just male friendship, that can take over. It is a teleology that puts men in a spiritual status over women.”
I’ve told your husbands that guys like this never had proper male role models and are overcompensating to the detriment of the community.
I also told him I overheard some catechumens bring up Jay Dyer in a reverent matter 🤦♂️
I’m starting to see the “orthobros” you mentioned coming into my parish 🙄
More and more I'm wondering how much these men might benefit from taking break from obscure theology or quotes from various elders and Youtube/podcast debates, and instead focusing for a while on the lives of the saints. Sure, the essence-energies distinction is important, but there's also living a Christian life, and we have ample material on what that actually looks like. With marriage and womanhood, I keep thinking especially of Sts. Justinian and Theodora, the latter having wielded a great deal of power with her husband; or the life of Sts. Peter and Fevronia of Murom, which shows a husband loving his wife as Christ loved his church; or St. Macrina, whom St. Gregory of Nyssa portrays as his teacher in "On the Soul and Resurrection." And whenever I encounter the term "Orthodox masculinity," I don't think of someone acting like Myron Gaines or Andrew Tate, I think of St. Basil the Fool.
On Sts. Peter and Fevronia: https://www.pravmir.com/life-of-the-saints-peter-and-fevronia-of-murom/
Some years back I ran across a story of married saints during the Roman Empire. They’d been wealthy and after their child died, they took some decades to sell off their estates to the workers and local communities. It’s a story that just hits home for the pacing, the partnership, and the eventual outcomes. They rushed nothing and weren’t hasty. It struck me that they answered the call and negotiated the life of asceticism as they could take it, always working toward their salvation. Their story struck me as a model of sustaining sacrifice and enduring work.
David and I have made hard but conscious choices to be either neutral or downwardly mobile — our search to buy a mattress the year before going to seminary must have startled salespersons. “We’re downwardly mobile ‘cause he’s going to seminary…” This has always been a partnership. But David came into the marriage without the hypermasculinity enculturation I experienced in my charismatic, evangelical circles. And I came as a rather conservative contrarian to my experience. The alchemy isn’t omni-present. The commitment to work at it is.
“Many left, some remained. Because it turns out, women in the Orthodox Church aren’t just naturally “subservient” and willing to settle for a man who wants to remain domineering in the more Protestant understanding of marriage, with all the head of the household stuff somehow being inflated while women are chided to submit, submit, submit.”
Forgive me Presbytera, but the Bible and the Saints are the ones that seem to inflate the “head of the household stuff” and “chide” women to “submit”.
I’m confused as to why you think this is Protestant? If anything this idea is lost is much of Protestantism.
The Church is a Hospital. Why do we act like it’s a crisis when sick people show up?
https://patristicpill.substack.com/p/the-lonely-orthodox-man-and-the-performance?r=14n9hw&utm_medium=ios
I’m concerned that we could easily talk past each other based upon what I just read in the post that you provided.
That will only worsen the situation.
That said, Icommend that man for working on his spirituality and his body-seeing the work on his body as a discipline that connects with his spiritual discipline- I am concerned about the man missing the mark on what women want.
In marriage, women want partners.
Building a good partnership is a long, hard road of self sacrifice and learning. That is true for anyone seeking that quality partnership.
Summer Kinnard gave one lovely example of a husband working on the sacrament of marriage.
“ Men who make their wives’ hearts glow and faces glow and bodies glow do so through showing up fully, to do whatever is needed to build up and feed the family and each other. They are not prescribers or judges but tenders and lovers, whether the poetry of their love pours out in words or the use of their hands to help the household. No man who wants to be like Christ would build a pedestal for himself, much less stand on it. Pedestals are for idols, not co-martyrs.”
My concern about the Writer you shared is that he still seems to think that he will need to be the leader and to somehow work on the woman he wants to marry.
As I wrote, many men seem to think they are teleologically superior to women.
I have to say in our congregation seekers may find some very good examples of marriages where it is clear that both partners are wearing the crowns of martyrdom for each other.
The crisis is not men coming into the church. I’m ready but rather remaining in the church without seeing women as made in the image of and an icon Christ as they see themselves.
“but rather remaining in the church without seeing” and such were some of you …
Such was I.
Such AM I.
The depth of sin in the fallenness of this world nowadays is such that there is considerable corruption in all of our members to be overcome. True repentance does not come quickly if you cannot love the person who sins differently than you if you cannot see Christ in an ortho, bro I guarantee you you will not see Christ in the chalice.
Honest question: Where in my writings did I not "see Christ" in the people referenced by the term that I said in the post was poorly defined? I outlined behaviors that wound others. It didn't address the same behaviors in the post you left for me (or other readers) to consider. Those were other behaviors.
I would like to point out that there's healing to be done in certain aspects of those behaviors.
If the Church is a hospital, then hopefully we can talk about behaviors that wound. Did you read Rod Dreher's post on the very situation addressed in the post you shared with readers here?
"if you cannot love the person who sins differently than you [etc] ...." is a high-handed rhetorical device that short-circuits sincere discussion. A kind of reverse mini-antinomianism.
Please stop it.
Forgive me - sins not sends. Technology is not my friend
I’m not accusing you of anything. We are being given a blessing by being entrusted with many souls who have come through enormous difficulties to find their way to the church. Now that they are in the church we have a responsibility to tend to their wounds. I can’t tell you how to do that. I don’t know you. But it is a responsibility we Orthodox share. Let nothing disturb your peace.
Thank you for this!
Frederica didn’t ask for 15 names of orthobros though.
“Fifteen names. So I asked Fr. Doru to send me the names of 15 Orthodox leaders who are promoting this new theology.”
Jesse, Noted… I took that to mean influencers who are promoting this. Again, the term Orthobros is ill-defined. It fails its purpose.
The preceding paragraph makes it clear that she’s talking about priests actually.
Even assuming Frederica is talking more generally about Orthodox influencers and Fr Doru can apply whatever definition he prefers to “orthobros” I think he would still have a hard time coming up with 15 names. I certainly can’t, but then I’m not that plugged in.
Point taken. That said, others, too, are talking about men who exhibit certain behaviors, as is Fr. Doru.
My post here is not to correct Frederica or "take her on." She's a moderating voice, and I appreciate that. We need all perspectives, but moderating ones especially.
This is all part of a larger conversation. And one that many have weighed in on. We are seeing a resurgence of ideas about male/female, husbands/wives, and clergy/laity that seem to miss the mark.
Notably, and sadly, I can quickly think of at least five priests I know of and several lower ranks of clergy who teach a worldview about male and female natures, men and women, and about hierarchy that leads to problematic behavior. There are homilies and talks about men disciplining their wives. There are talks that essentialize women as "in need of" or "desiring" leadership.
When we reduce humans to roles and functions or make people into projects, we are not seeing them in the fullness of how God created them.
These hint at a God-given difference that makes some people leaders. Others are just followers. Even an ordained priest is not teleologically superior or different from the rest of the flock. He's just been entrusted with specific work. We are all part of the priesthood.
The number of people who teach, maybe just within their homes or to their friends, is hard to quantify. Clergy alone do not create a healthy parish or congregation.
Women (and many hierarchs and priests) are alarmed by this *new* or less familiar teaching in the Orthodox Church. And the extraordinarily strong reactions against women in the diaconate, which many interpret as a strong reaction against women in any ordained leadership roles within the Church. Again, why? Are women by nature "less" than men somehow? That's not what the reasoning is for the male priesthood.
If people are reporting what alarms them, it seems reasonable to discuss it at length. Let's ask, what is the accurate scope and nature of the problem? What's at stake if we don't address it?
I'm hoping that my response here accurately reflects what you were trying to communicate to readers and to me.
I expanded a bit on some of the conversation. It has so many facets. I'm just noting that. It changes the line of your comments.
Mary of Egypt had the right idea.
She is my patron saint, which I find complex. (My last post Saints and Sinners was about that.)